Thread: Conflicting Advice - How much should I be trying to lose?

Hey guys,

Those of you following in my training thread will know I am planning my next phase of training. April to August - when I have my Half Ironman triathlon.

On one hand, I have an ex-triathlete telling me I have to get my weight down. Even though I will be losing muscle. As long as I keep my strength up.

On the other hand. I told the guy I trust for my sports health that my next goal was another 10KG and he told me to be cautious. Due to my build, considerations like bone density, etc, he felt 10 more KG could be too much.

I have some pics below, what do you guys reckon? Remember I don't want to be a body builder but do want to be reasonably 'cut up' and still capable of my endurance racing.

This is me at 99KG this morning. I am tensed but not trying to bulk up or suck up or anything. That would be cheating!

You can't really see them in the pics but my legs are pretty well defined (due to large muscles) and my arms are slowly getting there (due to much less muscle growth).

Im no expert at all but someone like Gerard from Body Compostion could help in regards to a dexascan and give you a "scientific" evaluation. Just a thought

I've thought of doing something like that before.

However in the past I have decided I would rather spend the $$ on gear. The reality being - whatever extra numbers I have - I will still be trying real hard to lose more weight.

I guess it may be becoming more appropriate now. My concern being that I need to spend as much effort as possible on getting faster. Last thing I want to do is spend April + May getting to 95KG (all good) then June and July trying to lose more weight with an unrealistic expectation. When I could be eating heaps and training for speed instead.

Plus - my sister warned me once of something she called Anorexia Athletica. She said it was a condition (I think she made it up) where people refuse to eat sufficient food to train because they have an unrealistic body image. She likened it to real anorexia where people refuse to eat food at all because they think they are fat when they are skin and bone.

My completely uninformed opinion is that super-endurance athletes (ie ironman competitors) aren't particularly healthy specimens. I think generally to compete in those sports you accept certain health aspects aren't going to be optional.

so yeah, I think 10kg is probably correct for your chosen sport. I think even at 89kg you would be one of the heavier guys to complete an ironman triathlon

Tim

Originally Posted by Big Tim

My completely uninformed opinion is that super-endurance athletes (ie ironman competitors) aren't particularly healthy specimens. I think generally to compete in those sports you accept certain health aspects aren't going to be optional.

so yeah, I think 10kg is probably correct for your chosen sport. I think even at 89kg you would be one of the heavier guys to complete an ironman triathlon

Tim

Does that mean you think 10KG is unhealthy but necessary for my sport or just that the sport itself is unhealthy?

I hear what you say about the sport - I want to complete an Aussie race next year (to hit my goal) and the Taupo race the following March. Then it will be back to Olympics and halfs.

Originally Posted by ClownBoy

Does that mean you think 10KG is unhealthy but necessary for my sport or just that the sport itself is unhealthy?

I think that 10kg is unhealthy but necessary for your sport. But please, take my opinion with a grain of salt, I have never competed or trained for endurance sports.

Tim

Originally Posted by Big Tim

I think that 10kg is unhealthy but necessary for your sport. But please, take my opinion with a grain of salt, I have never competed or trained for endurance sports.

Tim

It is fair enough - I appreciate your opinion. If 10KG is unhealthy - I might target 5KG then let more fall off as it does over time as I train. Something like that.

I probably know less than alot of you guys - don't forget how new I am at this. The following was me 18 months ago AFTER I started losing weight

http://www.sizematters.com.au/attach...ane-before.jpg

if you lost wt then it woiuld be less cal's equired to m ove the xtra wt when during your training/comp which all things (fitness, endurance, strength etc) remaining as they are, will yeild a faster time simply as you have les mass to move

that being said with all the comp type things yo do you don't really have a chance to go a fat loss phase or performace would suffer

from the looks of the photo's there is some excess which you want off but by simply saying 10kgs will do it is baseless...you might run better at 94kgs then 89kgs

if you've got a month you dedicate to fat loss ONLY then you could probably lose 5 - 7kgs of mostly fat

Originally Posted by swans05

if you've got a month you dedicate to fat loss ONLY then you could probably lose 5 - 7kgs of mostly fat

This is tempting. It is basically what I have done for the last month (and lost about 4-5KG). I kept up my trainign but accepted a bit of loss in performance. Put fat loss first.

Didn't enjoy it much though. As you say - my schedule doesn't allow much time for pur fat loss work. After Mooloolaba (in a couple of weeks), I still have a fun race in late April - then a slack until July when I have my marathon. Then it gets real busy until the end of the year.

I have alot of work to do to be ready for the marathon but maybe I could dedicate most of April to weight loss then play some catchup.

Originally Posted by ClownBoy

I probably know less than alot of you guys - don't forget how new I am at this.

Mate you have spent 18 months of your life committed to this - "under the bar" so to speak. The lessons that you have learnt are worth far more than the advice of many others who profess to be "experts".

Tim

Interesting comment from my sister. Let's pretend I also happen to be vain and cannot wait for the washboard stomach that can be a trophy for all the hard work.

Is it possible for me to gain that given the excess skin? She reckons I would be much more understanding of how close to that I am if I didn't have the excess skin hanging around.

Go for body fat percentage rather than scale weight. Get your skin folds done from someone who knows what they are doing and monitor your progress. I prefer using 12 sites. I dont think you would have any troubles getting to 10% in a short period of time.

Based on your pic and from what I know transforms clients quickly would be to consider insulin management and you carb intake. Supra iliac looks high and I'd say your sub scapular would be also. Purely based on your photo lower abs (umbilical) would be your second priority which is cortisol related. I find with insulin management protocols scale weight does not change a lot but body composition does e.g. 20% to sub 12% with little scale change.

I think that the excess skin will go as BF decreases. Gotu Kola can help with excess skin for people who have lost considerable amounts of weight.

Originally Posted by Belmont

Based on your pic and from what I know transforms clients quickly would be to consider insulin management and you carb intake. Supra iliac looks high and I'd say your sub scapular would be also. Purely based on your photo lower abs (umbilical) would be your second priority which is cortisol related. I find with insulin management protocols scale weight does not change a lot but body composition does e.g. 20% to sub 12% with little scale change.

I am trying to address cortisol issues at the moment. By increasing sleep, spending more time in playful stuff like with my son. I only recently read that insulin decreases cortisol so can use that also.

When I am not on a cut, I pretty much graze all day. Today for example (I only just finished a weight dropping cycle yesterday).

4am - supps
4:30-5:30 - running

Brekky - bircher muesli

6:30-7:30 - cycling (training is disrupted on weeks like this one due to my wife's schedule)

2 muesli bars, a glass of milk, slice of bread and some almonds since then.

Lunch will be velish soup with this really nutty\seed filled bread I like

A\tea will be rice cream (rice cooked on milk instead of water) and protein shake

4:30-5:30 is cycling then an hour of swimming.

Dinner is undecided yet.

On this diet\workout routine - I don't lose or gain weight (slightly trend down). But thwere is no thought to timing or insulin management as I have to get alot of food in. When I eat like this - every ride\run challenges my PBs and I feel alot faster.

How would you change this for insulin management? I know the food aren't all the best but I just aim for natural, as unprocessed as possible and healthy.

I'd view your above diet as moderate - high carb / low protein and your photo as someone who does not handle carbs well (at present)(or possibly is not digesting, assimilating their food). Carbohydrate intake aside, i'd say you are not meeting your daily protein, vegetable goal and possibly fiber goal. Although milk is a protein is has a high insulin load.

There are a few different schools of thought but for protein I'd use 3.3 - 4.4g / kg body weight. If you are going to still be eating moderate carbs I'd go more towards 3.3g/kg to balance out total calorie intake.

Basic supplements to help would be fish oil and HCL. I find HCL makes a big difference to most people.

More advanced stuff for insulin management would be:

Metagenics Insulex / ResistX Combo
OR
Poliquin Fenuplex / Insulinomics

Both combos have different herbs, that people respond differently to.

I find these get rid of love handles quickly when combined with the right diet.

High Carb and Moderate protein has been my goal. I used to have much higher protein intake but protein counts towards calory intake just as much as carbs so when I decided to increase carbs to support my training workload - I figured I should slightly reduce protein as well.

I get my vegie intake - today's soup is velish - pure whizzed up vegies more or less. Plus when I have rice or pasta dishes - I use a 50/50 rice and vegie (or pasta and vegie) mix. Last night's spaggetti bog for example had 50/50 pasta and mixed veg.

I used to take fish oil but haven't for a little while so I will re-introduce it.

By the way, in making these changes - I am sensing we are saying not to worry about the weight loss and how much more I can get? Maybe the weight is close to low enough but I am not presenting well due to some diet issues?