Thread: The best & most potent tribulas?

Originally Posted by Jas0n

Was distracted by the massive 12.5g of Tribulus Terrestris per serve there :P

:)

One thing to consider is that if your natural test levels are fairly healthy, then there's not much more trib et al, will do for you.

These products are aimed more at blokes down my end of the age spectrum.

However, if you're suppressed, post-cycle, then they should help restore, but for guys not coming off gear, who are relatively young and healthy, then don't expect too much from products like Trib.

Originally Posted by take2

:)

One thing to consider is that if your natural test levels are fairly healthy, then there's not much more trib et al, will do for you.

These products are aimed more at blokes down my end of the age spectrum.

However, if you're suppressed, post-cycle, then they should help restore, but for guys not coming off gear, who are relatively young and healthy, then don't expect too much from products like Trib.

I wanted to seek your opion on this actually T2, I've never used a test enhancer (except USP powerfull, which is more of a natural HGH product) as such and now I'm nearing 31 I feel I could do with a boost! Do you think a NOW trib product or something like Novadex XT would be better?

Might actually do before and after bloods to see.

Originally Posted by andypoo

I wanted to seek your opion on this actually T2, I've never used a test enhancer (except USP powerfull, which is more of a natural HGH product) as such and now I'm nearing 31 I feel I could do with a boost! Do you think a NOW trib product or something like Novadex XT would be better?

Might actually do before and after bloods to see.

Haven't really explored the Novadex XT, mainly because I'm sceptical when supp products try to imitate trade ones; but having said that, Novadex would appear in theory to work differently to Trib.

As with all things like this; I would, as you suggested, do blood tests first. If your estrogen is on the high-ish side, then the N-XT may be the way to go, assuming it actually does what it says, and given what's in it, it may. My only concern is the price.

If your estro is ok then the Trib may be a better option, and certainly a cheaper one.

The NOW product seems to be as good a trib product, $ for gram, as you'll get.

Originally Posted by take2

:)

One thing to consider is that if your natural test levels are fairly healthy, then there's not much more trib et al, will do for you.

These products are aimed more at blokes down my end of the age spectrum.

However, if you're suppressed, post-cycle, then they should help restore, but for guys not coming off gear, who are relatively young and healthy, then don't expect too much from products like Trib.

Then why do blokes bother then if it's not going to make too much of a difference?

Also, can a man have too much testosterone? If they're natural test levels are normal and they're taking trib, can you 'overdose' on it (so to speak)?

Originally Posted by take2

Haven't really explored the Novadex XT, mainly because I'm sceptical when supp products try to imitate trade ones; but having said that, Novadex would appear in theory to work differently to Trib.

As with all things like this; I would, as you suggested, do blood tests first. If your estrogen is on the high-ish side, then the N-XT may be the way to go, assuming it actually does what it says, and given what's in it, it may. My only concern is the price.

If your estro is ok then the Trib may be a better option, and certainly a cheaper one.

The NOW product seems to be as good a trib product, $ for gram, as you'll get.

Nice one, makes sense, I'll take a scientific approach and do before and after bloods - stay tuned!

Originally Posted by soriminah

Then why do blokes bother then if it's not going to make too much of a difference?

Also, can a man have too much testosterone? If they're natural test levels are normal and they're taking trib, can you 'overdose' on it (so to speak)?

Good point. For some blokes it will make very little difference, so yes, why bother. As I said, if your test levels are strong, then there's probably little value in using Trib, although the exact mechanism by which it works is unknown, so even with "normal" levels, there may be a benefit. I don't think trib will ever increase test levels beyond what would be "normal" for men. At my age, with natural test levels low, trib has an obvious and welcome effect.

Can a man have too much testosterone???? mmmmmmm.... :) Short answer? Yes. The surplus will be converted to estrogen to keep hormonal balance; which in fact creates an imbalance by producing too much estrogen, hence the need for anti-Es.

What needs to be considered is that test alone is not the answer; it's estrogen and SHBG. They need to be optimal too.

Originally Posted by take2

Good point. For some blokes it will make very little difference, so yes, why bother. As I said, if your test levels are strong, then there's probably little value in using Trib, although the exact mechanism by which it works is unknown, so even with "normal" levels, there may be a benefit. I don't think trib will ever increase test levels beyond what would be "normal" for men. At my age, with natural test levels low, trib has an obvious and welcome effect.

Can a man have too much testosterone???? mmmmmmm.... :) Short answer? Yes. The surplus will be converted to estrogen to keep hormonal balance; which in fact creates an imbalance by producing too much estrogen, hence the need for anti-Es.

What needs to be considered is that test alone is not the answer; it's estrogen and SHBG. They need to be optimal too.

Interesting. Never knew that. Thanks.

If tribulas continuously kept raising testosterone levels to no end, then there would be no need for injections of testosterone aas.

There would be a point where the body max's out, but at what amount is that?
4 tabs a day? 8 tabs a day? 12 tabs a day?
And if it is at 4 tabs a day, people taking 8 are just throwing their money away.

The question is, at what point will testosterone levels not be effected when increasing the dose?
I'll be sure to add this to my test results.

Will do 3 sets of tests.
One with 4, 8 and then 12 and see if any significant differance.

Taking it one step further again from:

Total mg of tribulas herb, to > % of saponins within those mg, to further > % of protodioscin within that % of saponins.

It's this last step that makes a quality tribulas product, so shouldn't we be further looking at the % of protodioscin WITHIN the saponins?

For example, NOW Tribulas with 45% saponins of that 1,000mg, makes it 450mg of saponins, but what percentage of those 450mg is calculated as protodioscin?

1%, 2%?
It doesn't say and this is the main key to a quality trib product.

Brands, MRM and Herb's Of Gold state theirs on their product.

VERY interesting thread and opinions here, for myself I have NEVER experienced anything beneficial, noticeable from ANY tribulus product out there over the years, people will argue the dosage cycle, but BANG for BUCK I cannot justify this, I just simply feel tribulus for many is money NOT well spent :(

Maybe a email to NOW might clear things up....

Originally Posted by MO

Taking it one step further again from:

Total mg of tribulas herb, to > % of saponins within those mg, to further > % of protodioscin within that % of saponins.

It's this last step that makes a quality tribulas product, so shouldn't we be further looking at the % of protodioscin WITHIN the saponins?

For example, NOW Tribulas with 45% saponins of that 1,000mg, makes it 450mg of saponins, but what percentage of those 450mg is calculated as protodioscin?

1%, 2%?
It doesn't say and this is the main key to a quality trib product.

Brands, MRM and Herb's Of Gold state theirs on their product.

MO, I made this point earlier regarding protodioscin.

"They say the saponin content is 98.39% and the Protodioscin is 40.53%. Yet my research says that Protodioscin is the active saponin in Trib. So is the saponin content, the one we are really concerned about, only 40.53%? Which is what can be obtained elsewhere?"

Does that mean there are several saponins, of which one is protodioscin? Which then runs against the idea that the active saponin in trib is protodioscin?

Tribulus (Puncture vine,Tribulus terrestris) Raw Material Quality
By Ted Waszkuc, Ph.D., NOW Foods Methods Development Scientist

There are two main reasons leading to variations in plant herbal extracts from different sources. One is that the choice of plant parts - like roots, leaves and stems or fruits of the particular species - might be different. The second reason reflects differences in the plant origin, as the natural composition of plant from identical species may vary depending on climatic and regional differences. The Tribulus story is rather striking example of how the plant’s geographic origin can effect its phytochemical composition and nutritional quality.

The genus of Tribulus (family of Zygophyllaceae) comprises about 20 species of creeping perennial shrubs or herbs, of which species named “terrestris” – Tribulus terrestris L. - is the most common one. The plant grows worldwide in subtropical countries of Asia and Africa, but also in southeastern Europe (primarily Bulgaria).

Like other weedy species, Tribulus has many common names. Puncture vine, caltrop and goat’s head are the most widely used. Tribulus terrestris L. is a ground-hugging herbaceous perennial plant that grows as a summer annual in colder climates. Its reddish branches spread radially from a central point up to a diameter of about 3 feet, bearing small, oblong leaflets which may form flat patches along the ground. Fruits are easy to identify due to their unique shape comprising four single-seeded nutlets bearing two sharp spines that can puncture bicycle tires or cause considerable pain to bare feet. The goat’s head common name for this plant reflects its fruit’s characteristic shape.

In countries like India and China fruits of T.terrestris has been used since ancient times for the treatment of various urinary and cardiovascular complaints, as an antiseptic and a temporary anti-inflammatory remedy. In ancient Greece puncture vine was used as a physical rejuvenation tonic. Its aphrodisiac properties have also been noted since early times. Modern scientific research has recently confirmed most of the traditional observations.1,2,3,4

Puncture vine made its way to the New World on ships from the Mediterranean, finding true niche in the U.S. Southwest. In some regions it is considered an invasive species, even growing wildly in sidewalk cracks.

T. terrestris extract used as a single herbal product ingredient has recently become popular in natural health products. It has been marketed as a general tonic to increase energy levels and herbal remedy for sexual dysfunction, especially in men. Athletes from Eastern Europe, primarily Bulgaria, have used it successfully since 1980’s to improve strength and stamina.5 In recent years, Tribulus has also developed a following among body builders and exercise enthusiasts in Western World. It is believed that T. terrestris affects testosterone production by triggering the body into releasing luteinizing hormone (LH).4 LH is responsible for “telling” the body to produce more testosterone. By promoting the production of the body’s own hormones, it works within the body’s natural limits to help men, especially older men, achieve their strength and muscular potential. Tribulus will not cause the body to indefinitely produce more and more of any hormone, but rather it balances natural hormone levels. In fact, one recent study found that T.terrestris caused no increase in testosterone or LH production in young, healthy men.6

Tribulus owes its health and medicinal effects to the specific group of steroidal glycosides belonging to the wider class of natural products called “saponins”.7,8 Saponins constitute a vast group of glycosides, either steroidal or triterpenoid in nature, which are ubiquitous in plants; their generic name derived from Latin word: sapo, saponis - which means soap - reflects detergent-like ability to form foamy solutions in water. Tribulus steroidal saponin content varies depending upon the source of saponin within the plant (e.g. fruit, leaves or steams). There are two types of Tribulus steroidal glycosides: spirostanols in fruits9 and furostanols, mainly found in leaves.10,11 The active phytochemical in T. terrestris plant is proven to be steroidal saponin of furostanol type called protodioscin.12

Tribulus terrestris grown on different soils does not consistently produce the same levels of steroidal saponins.The protodioscin content of T. terrestris varies greatly depending on the geographic region in which it is grown. Analysis of products selected from the U.S. market found lower levels of protodioscin in the majority of samples.13 It was found that the level of protodioscin changes substantially with the plant part (leaf, stem or fruit) and origin (Bulgaria, India or China) of the Tribulus. All samples from Bulgaria contained a rather high percentage of protodioscin, with most of it in the leaves (1.34%), significantly less in the stems (0.27%) and fruits (0.24%). The phytochemistry of Chinese and Indian Tribulus differed considerably from that of Bulgarian origin. Samples from India and China showed totally different profiles in saponin content with protodioscin as only a minor compound: 0.063% in fruit from China and 0.024% in stem from India (leaf samples were not available).13 Consequently, Chinese and Indian T.terrestris does not have the same pharmacological and physiological functions as Bulgarian Tribulus.

NOW Foods uses Tribulus powder extract manufactured from genuine Bulgarian leaves containing not only standardized, high protodioscin level, but all steroidal saponins characteristic to the plant. The quality of the product is assessed by High Performance Liquid Chromatography (HPLC). This allows us to assure that only top quality active ingredients are used in our products and to guarantee their authenticity and potency.

References:

1 Al-Ali, M., et al., Tribulus terrestris: preliminary study of its diuretic and contractile effects and comparison with Zea mays. Journal of Ethnopharmacology 85, 257-260 (2003)

2 Phillps, O.A., et al., Antihypertensive and vasodilator effects of methanolic and aqueous extracts of Tribulus terrestris in rats. Journal of Ethnopharmacology 104, 351-355 (2006)

3 Zhang, J-D, et al., Antifungal activities and action mechanisms of compounds from Tribulus terrestris L. Journal of Ethnopharmacology 103, 76-84 (2006)

4 Gauthman, K., et al., Aphrodisiac properties of Tribulus terrestris extract (Protodioscin) in normal and castrated rats. Life Sciences 71, 1385-1396 (2002)

5 Antonio, J., et al., The effects of Tribulus terrestris on body composition and exercise performance in resistance-trained males. International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism 10, 208-215 (2000)

6 Neychev, V.K., et al., The aphrodisiac herb Tribulus terrestris does not influence the androgen production in young men. J. of Ethnopharmacology 101, 319-323 (2005)

7 Wu, G., et al., Steroidal glycosides from Tribulus terrestris. Phytochemistry 42, 1677-1681 (1996)

8 Bedir, E., et al., Biologically active steroidal glycosides from Tribulus terrestris. Pharmazie 57, 491-493 (2002)

9 Wang, Y., et al., Steroidal saponins from fruits of Tribulus terrestris. Phytochemistry 42, 1417-1422 (1996)

10 De Combarieu, E., et al., Furostanol saponins from Tribulus terrestris. Fitoterapia 74, 583-591 (2003)

11 Conrad, J., et al., A novel furostanol saponin from Tribulus terrestris of Bulgarian origin. Fitoterapia 75, 117-122 (2004)

12 Gauthaman, K., et al., Sexual effects of puncture vine (Tribulus terrestris) extract (protodioscin): an evaluation using a rat model. Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine 9(2), 257-265 (2003)

13 Ganzera, M., et al., Determination of steroidal saponins in Tribulus terrestris by reverse-phase high-performance liquid chromatography and evaporative light scattering detection. Journal of Pharmaceutical Sciences 90(11), 1752-1758 (2001)

NOW Foods - Tribulus (Puncture vine,Tribulus terrestris) Raw Material Quality

I've just started using NOW Trib and it rocks.

The link that you provide there by NOW is very informative toward tribulas, T2.
Cheers for that.
I think every question i ever had is answered in that link.

Especially this one in earlier discussion:

"Tribulus will not cause the body to indefinitely produce more and more of any hormone, but rather it balances natural hormone levels. In fact, one recent study found that T.terrestris caused no increase in testosterone or LH production in young, healthy men."

...which is what i was trying to say about if tribulas just kept raising levels to no end, then there would be no need for testosterone injections.
From my understanding it looks like it raises them to near maximal of natural production IF YOU ARE NOT NEAR YOUR MAXIMUM ALREADY.
If you are already maxed out, then there is minimal it will do.

I'm still going to get tests before, during and after to settle this though.